OUTLAW EAGLE MANUFACTURING

[MISSBHAVEN]

GM has sent me the software to validate the seals on the CT525. You simply take a picture of all the seals on the engine with a web cam and download them to a laptop where the software decodes the image, and catalogs its exact location on each specific engine, so people can't take seals from a blown up engine and put it on theirs. ie; Each seal is engine and position specific.

The sealed version of the ZZ4 have tamper proof bolts which easily show signs of tampering. Opponents to sealed engines say it's easy to buy counterfeit bolts on the internet, and perhaps you can, but what that tells me is that a determined cheater can't be stopped no matter what we do, so should we be happy with vague rules and make it easy for that same determined cheater to cheat, or shouldn't it be our obligation to our fellow racers to keep things as even as possible by not allowing people to exploit the grey area in the existing rules to gain an unfair advantage over the honest racer which is 99% of us.

Also, running sealed motors will discourage racers from running their engines on the ragged edge for tuning as they know if they blow it up, they simply can't repair the engine, they have to replace it. Again making racing more even and competitive.

Phasing in the sealed motors by 2015 will give people time to wear out their existing motor and simply replace it with a sealed version. If a repair of a sealed motor is required during a weekend or world event, a repair will be allowed only under the supervision of an official, and after the event is over the engine will not be allowed to race again.

Unfortunately, like many things in life, the few ruin it for the many. If we allow people to open an engine up to do repairs, it is very easy to replace the OEM parts with far superior copies, there are companies in the states that brag about getting 50-100 more hp with cheater parts that have the same casting numbers and appear OEM but are superior (it's almost impossible to tell the difference between the OEM part sitting on a table right beside a counterfit cheater part, never mind trying to check it on a little 3 inch bore scope screen). So it would be extremely difficult and labor intensive to fully disassemble and inspect every engine component of 3 CX and 3 FX boats after each weekend, which would be the only way to insure no one was cheating.................. or take 5 minutes per boat and check the seals....DONE!

It is also incorrect that our fellow racers in NZ and Mexico have problems getting sealed motors, there is no difference in availability if the motor is sealed or not, and the OEM parts to repair them have the same availability. I believe that 8 of 10 CX motors currently racing in NZ are sealed CT525's.

The number 1 detractor for new people thinking about entering a sport is internal strife in the organization caused by accusations of cheating being thrown around where people have taken their engine to a builder to be "Race Tuned [i] [/i]", this would be eliminated when the motors are sealed. (note: this doesen't mean you can't get your engine dyno tuned)

A used Ct motor in good running order routinly sells for about $3,000 less than new, and the ZZ4's sell for about $2000-2500 less than new. So, $2000-$3000 for an entire new engine is pretty cheap racing.

Crate motors have brought our sport back from the brink of extinction. I believe that if we want our sport to continue to be filled with comradery and good sportsmanship that we all love it for, we need to insure that no one is getting an unfair advantage by exploiting grey areas or loop holes in the rules. Make the racers return to our grass roots where the winner wasen't decided by having his motor "Race Tuned " , (weather it be a real advantage or only percieved, this contributes to poor sportsmanship), but the Team that worked the hardest and smartest at tuning their boat and learning to drive the river the fastest.

If we don't bite the bullet now, I guarantee people will be turning their $5000 ZZ4's into $20,000 ZZ4's and their $8,000 CT525's into $25,000 CT525's for the 2015 Worlds in Canada

If I loose a race, I want to loose it fair and square on the river, because the other team ran a better race, not because they had a better motor (Again- whether real or percieved - it doesen't matter, it still detracts from our sport- AND having a sealed motor makes the motor complaint a non issue!!)

FYI - I'm voicing my opinion here as I won't be able to attend the rules meeting on Saturday as I have to go to a funeral.

[MISSBHAVEN]

[Arthur]

I really don't think we have a big problem with 'cheating' in our sport. Yes there was a discrepancy this summer, but it all worked out and was rectified. The first step I think is to incorporate rules similar to NZ with NO exceptions. No machining and no rebuild/part changes without a member of the CBF signing off on it. Engines are not really the cheapest part of this sport IMO, in fact I'm dreading having to buy one next year, but probably will. Mine has 6 full races on it(2 seasons minus FSJ) and a bunch of testing as well, and is still running pretty strong. But in preparations for the Worlds I want a dyno tuned motor thats ready to run reaching its peak HP.

Right now I'm in the middle of the FX class and have a bunch of work and time to spend getting my boat quicker. I've brought it from a 76mph boat to a 85+mph boat(in my home waters) in two seasons and am looking for the last mph to run with the top 3-4 guys.(The last you find are usually the most pricey ones I've been told) It's a fact that if you're FX boat is not capable of 85-95mph down stream, you will be out of a top 3 position if all the boats stay running. I have learned a lot this year from some great guys. Guys that are at the launch and offering parts and tips on how they found they're speed. Not by engine mods, but Hull, IGN, pump, engine placement, weight savings....wing tricks etc.

I love this sport, but really do get bothered by what I believe is a non issue. When is the last time somebody got caught cheating or suspended? It's a gentleman's Sport and I think Bob summed it up best by stating "Were just a bunch of guys pissing away some money doing what we love" If a CX or FX boat shows up at the Worlds without a sealed motor do they get sent home or be allowed to race but get no points? There very well could be modded motors out there with people that don't care about tarnishing there name....that shit is not for me. I wanna race as long as my income allows and watch every race I can when it doesn't.JMO

[boosted]

Unfortionataly that is part of the problem. Most people will just run a factory crate engine but there are the few who will spend the big bucks to get the advantage in the engine department. In cx class a couple of years ago even though at the time it was not illegal The winning boat was making 20 or more hp than the second place boat was. This was done with the use of oxegenated fuels, drilling extra cooling holes in the heads and running a more aggressive tuneup. In order for someone else to compete with that they would need to spend the extra $ also. See where this heads. This has been going on for years now and really this was the first year that some of it was challenged. I am not saying that there was an infractions but it sucks that all that time and $ had to be spent to proove it one way or another.
I would love to say that having the NZ rules would do the trick but for the couple of guys that are willing to really push between the lines it leaves the doors open and makes it alot of work for the tech people to monitor.

[MISSBHAVEN]

Chad, I'm not trying to be an ass, but your statement is key....

[Arthur]

Some good points...and you are right, I don't know for sure and I'm just implying right now there is not a big problem. But I see what you guys are getting at with down the road thinking. When talking expense's on the boat I was referring to the motor being one of the highest due to the fact that it gets the most wear and tear. The pump being second and everything else that can happen with the hull etc 3rd.

And yes it is very Expensive to run these races, but my mentality is if your worried about fuel, camping cost, food and beer you probably shouldn't be racing. Just like when someone asks me what kind of millage I get on my truck....? Hell if I know, Gauge says 'E' and I hit the pumps. I consider this Sport very family orientated and much like a holiday/get together. All three races I went to seen a average of 20+ people in my group either camping or choosing to stay at hotels. Thats a lot of coin to add up, but to me its a great get away or Vacation doing something that I love. The people in my tribe that come watch do it because they know I love the support and where else can we all get together 3+ times a year like that? Ever since my father in law saw my first race he hasn't missed one. My old man has never missed any and my wife only missed one because of a wedding.

My point is if you're concerned about all the other cost's you listed to do this, then you might want to look into curling or softball Boats need gas, people need lodging, you have to eat and having NO beer when you're wrenching would be absurd!! When someone asks I tell them I spend about 3k per race.

Diesel $300
Chase Vehicle $300
Camping $120 per spot X 5 spots usually
AV gas $600
Pre run gas $300
Entry $600-$750
Food $200
Beer $200

Never mind shit that's out of my control like the guaranteed photo radar you will get in WC or the tire that blew on my camper and took some wall with it, or the pin that magically wiggled its way out of the receiver going to Magoo's and put a nice dent in the wife's Yukon with my bow.....

But like I said....if you're truck needs gas, you have two choices.

[MISSBHAVEN]

[boosted]

The following is case and point of what can happen when just rules are used. This is from another forum and I have deleted the names to keep it more private.


slight of cam dynamics

by induction apprentice » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:43 am

Bone stock 2001 Ls6 motor

Trying to find ways to navigate between the lines of the current rule book in a production road race class.

I am interested in ways to enhance power through altered cam timing while retaining the stock camshaft.

Anyones opinion of how much if any gain in higher rocker ratios, larger lifter wheel diameters or any other very hard to detect LS6 ideas?induction apprentice
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Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:12 am
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Re: slight of cam dynamics

Use a .904" diameter lifter with the biggest roller wheel available.
Expert


Posts: 717
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:15 am
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Re: slight of cam dynamics

Our cam for the 604 crate engine, makes 8-10hp more then the stock cam, yet measures stock.
Where the tech guys are just checking max lift, we can make an extra 25hp.

It all depends on how they're teching the engine.
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Re: slight of cam dynamics

Our cam for the 604 crate engine, makes 8-10hp more then the stock cam, yet measures stock.
Where the tech guys are just checking max lift, we can make an extra 25hp.

It all depends on how they're teching the engine.

Now that you mentioned that. I think I have read some similar comments from you in other postings. I am going to take you up on this. In the near future. I am going to get the motor in two weeks to a month from now depending on if he finishes the last race of our season or not?

Do you agree the bigger lifter wheel is an advantage. I assume that will show up as a bigger duration depending on if they check it in the motor or not?

I realize its hard for you to comment on rocker ratios because of the several dynamics that it may change not to mention what will physically mechanically fit in the motor and operate successfully from a mechanical stand point. But all aside and speaking only from the benefit of increased duration and faster valve event. Do you think generally a higher ratio is in the right direction with a mild / stock camshaft. I like the idea of the rockers because of the ease of removal if we get noticed. :0 As for the increased lift they will add. I have a 1020 bench so I will be able to flow the head and observe where the head stalls. I won't bring the lift point that high of course. Just trying to get my ideas in line before I actually start with this build soon.induction apprentice
Pro


Posts: 302
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Re: slight of cam dynamics

Use a .904" diameter lifter with the biggest roller wheel available.

Your online with my initial thinking. I am going to research further how they check them. If they check it installed It may be not such a good idea?

Thank'sinduction apprentice
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Posts: 302
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Re: slight of cam dynamics

wheel diameter isn't going to affect total lift.Pro question poster.Bob
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Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:32 pmTop
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Re: slight of cam dynamics

wheel diameter isn't going to affect total lift.

Bob, I agree with you that bigger lifter wheels will not effect lift.

You had me rattled for a sec. I had to go back to my posting and make sure I did not state that. induction apprentice
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Posts: 302
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Re: slight of cam dynamics

You first move is to find out exactly how they're checking the valvetrain, and how much variance they're allowing.
Those are the parameters you have to work within.Mike Jones

Posts: 6759
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Re: slight of cam dynamics


You first move is to find out exactly how they're checking the valvetrain, and how much variance they're allowing.
Those are the parameters you have to work within.

Makes perfect sense to me. I'm on it!


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Posts: 302
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Re: slight of cam dynamics


Cheater.

Erland

[Arthur]

Ha...there's a name on the bottom post but I totally agree! Should have that word tattoo'd on his fore head.