OUTLAW EAGLE MANUFACTURING

[Dale]

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THERE ARE NO CHANGES TO THE 2015 RULES THIS IS A DICUSSION FOR THE 2016 YEAR RULE BOOK.

We all agree that we need to keep CX competitive and affordable and we are huge fan’s of the crate motor classes. that being said our goal here is to increase the reliability and NOT the horsepower of these engines. That being said, there has been an overabundance of engine failures that have been attributed to piston and/or rod failure. I know some of these are self-inflicted but many other forms of auto racing has seen the same failures.

So back at the Fall at the CFB western zone meeting and awards we came up with a group to change the CX motor rules to make them last longer and be more affordable in the long run. We have seen 8-10 engine blow up’s every year for the last 3 years. It is well known that the pistons and rods will not take the kind of abuse we are putting them to. Also we have seen many broken valve springs.

The goal of the goal of the group was to pick a process that would allow the racer to change some parts out in the engine, for NON GM, parts. The goal is NOT to make more power, maybe even less power, but to have an engine that can race a whole season or more without problems.

First I think we want to allow a piston change to a 10.5ish:1 compression ratio and forged, just under the 10.7 stock, also a hone of the cylinders so we can clearance them properly is needed. Allow a rod change to be the same weight and length as stock but forged. The intent is to find a piston and rod combo that is the same weight as stock and will NOT require balancing.

And to allow head studs and after-market gaskets. A valve spring change is also needed, the old yellow springs were good but the new blue ones won’t last 2 races. As long as they are the same size as stock and will not increase power in any way.

We also have to think about how we are going to “Teck” the changed engines, we may have to pull a head at every race?


There are a couple of guys that want to do this for next year and are planning to change the engines and run them in “A class” for the worlds. So we need to come up with something so they can get started with the engine builds. ASAP

We think that it should, possibly, be discussed on the forum to get more input from the rest of the CX teams. We would like to get some feedback over the year and nothing is changed or will change till fall of 2015.

Western zone CX rule change group

[Will R]

I think this ones a no brainer I'd say without a doubt it
Should be adopted! As you stated its done for reliability
and not for a performance gain. Anytime there's an opportunity
To make these engines last longer in probably the most
torturous environments in motorsports it should be takin into
consideration. My 2 cents

[The Real Deal]

seems like the EFI 376 has stood up well with one boat running 3 full seasons with no internal problems

[Dale]

It does seam like the old engines from 4 or more years ago were alot better. We know the changed valve springs, but don't know what else they changed.

[RPM]

I've done the tune on 3 engines over 5-6 yrs. for Steve . So far so good , but it's 26-28* timing with a 750 carb . I think the breakin and oil changes are important , don't run the shit out of it till you have some hours and a couple oil changes on it then have at it . Hope the new engine is as good as the first two cause they took a beating . GM needs to get the springs back up to what they were . think cx needs to stay crate , rebuilds would need to run in A .

[boosted]

There are a few issues with what you are proposing.
Custom engines are what almost killed this sport only a few years ago.
I have not yet seen a 525 blown that did it for no reason. Most are from improper breakin and an over aggressive tune. These things come .0005 piston clearance very tight .012 ish ring gap. With an aluminum block it needs to be ran warm for at least the first 3-4 hrs with less timing. Any deto at all will heat the pistons and rings then put extra stress on them. Although these motors make power above 6000 rpm the valve springs really don't like it. In some forms of racing they use a valve spring rule to help in limiting power output. So put in forged pistons and rods with better valve spring a then we will see guys spinning 6500 and touching 7000 through rough water. Then we will see cranks and other things start to go.
The cx engine when ran within the running parameters that are safe for our racing and when broke in properly does pretty well. It is when guys really start pushing the tune that we see issues. If every cx engine showed signs of piston issues like LSX does, I would say do it, but they don't.

Now let's say this goes through, how is the maching,honing, setup controlled. A lot of very smart engine builders out there that know how extract power and not get there customer caught.
What is the cost to have the pistons, rods , and valve springs replaced? I bet the bill for that is almost as much as another motor.
I believe in some instances such as the LSX that the idea has Merrit but with the cx engine I don't think it has.
In the end I am just another racer and am not the one making the decisions.
That's my .02

[Backdraft]

Fellow Racers,
The purpose of a crate engine class is to provide an equal platform for all competitors, near and far, limitations be what they may. If we want to finish every race we need to understand what those limitations are, in order to be successful.
I have been researching the shit out of this with a some very knowledgeable people, 40 + years in the business, ( to whom have nothing to gain or lose from this ), and I am currently awaiting the written responses from the actual manufactures of these parts, as to their explanations on what the root causes can be attributed to on these issues, and I would be more than happy to share as soon as I receive the written version from the discussions on this topic. ( I’m pretty sure we already know what the primary causes are, and the reasons for the push towards aftermarket parts in order to increase the parameter’s , but I’m working on getting it right from the experts so we can bring it out in the open)
Furthermore we would all have to be naïve to believe that there would be no power gain to be had with the proposed changes. So this would definitely force us all to spend the money in order to be competitive and be absolutely impossible to control. ( Good win for the engine builders though ). I come from a circle track background and I have seen this very thing in the past and I can say, without a doubt, it will be the demise of our CX CRATE engine class if we allow this to go any further. There are multiple reasons for failures and we just need to accept the fact that when we push the limits beyond the designed parameters, there will be failure, and don’t forget GM has already told us what those limits are. Even with these proposed modifications there are no guarantees that there won’t be failures, so it won’t end there. Who are we to say we know more than GM about this engine they built, so let us learn. The engine guys I have spoken with all assure me we can build more power with what is being proposed here and it will not end with just these modifications!
So, my vote is leave the CX class alone, mandatory tear downs, and lower the protest back to $500 or even less in order to preserve what this class is supposed to be all about before it’s too late.
On that same note: a set of head gaskets ( $96.38/pair ) and a set of new torque to yield bolts ( $27.08/ set of 30 ) under $150 and the rest of the gaskets are reusable.
Just my 5 cents worth as we don’t use copper money in Canada.
Respectfully
Barry

[2 bad]

Well I have had the misfortune of wrecking three motors in two yrs, and leaving one for fish habitat The first one we lost was solely due to timing trying to run 33deg, completely our fault. We lost our second motor with probably only twenty min of run time on it, I think we starved it of oil. Boat wouldn't get on step and I tried for way to long,( bow in the air)with a new motor with a stock pan. Due to funds our rebuild consisted of several used parts that should have been replaced. Twenty min run time after rebuild it grenaded hole #2. With all that being said every time it was our fault. There are a few motors out there that have a lot of time on them that are not running more than 26deg timing. If you get greedy there is a price to pay! That is proven. The valve spring issue aside, I would like to see the rules remain the same. I am one that could not afford to start with a eight grand motor and do a total rebuild to stay competitive. I would hate to see this class go that way. We're going with the low timing, good fuel and cross our fingers that it will last longer than the guys who is pushing the limits. That's my two copper pennies worth.

[Wazza]

Seems like those that have raced CX are talking sense.

The only issue with the 3 CX motors I've had has been with the valve springs.

So other than the valve spring leave the thing alone. Yes some motors have blown and it's always easier to blame the manufacturer than admit it's something you've done or not done that has probably led to it. (with or without knowing)

Good on those above that put their hands up.

If really want to kill a crate class then start modifying/ changing pistons etc etc ...

[Lcuntr]

I'm so new to racing I haven't raced yet but I boat a lot and I know reliability is a nice worm blanket but the word crate class says it all out of the crate into the boat don't f-ck with it unless your a cheater if you are there's people in racing way smarter than me that will catch you have leaver a and leaver b you guys if you want to pull a crate motor apart no problem into unlimited you go that's all the chit chat I can afford

[Ivan]

I run a ct 525 engine with the factory seals still on the engine except for the oil pan because I put a Dan Olson one on. I have raced 13 races since 2012 in the cx class without any engine problems. I would like to know how many of these engines that failed were still factory sealed and had not been to a engine builder for a special tune or tinkered on in garages by boat racers who think they are really good mechanics? If they were still sealed and failed, what was run for timing and fuel? Let's be honest I think 8 out of the 10 engines that we see fail each year is not for no reason. Why would we even want to think about allowing these changes? To make it easer to cheat in a class that is supposed to run stock crate engines?

[burlyracing]

The problem with the CX class is not engine reliability. It is probably the most reliable engine/class to run in our little sport. The problem we need to address is CHEATING. We all know that many cheaters are now running in the class and it is getting to the point that only a cheater can win. We need to stop it. If a working guy can no longer compete because he has to send his crate engine to a motor builder for illegal mods in order to be competitive, the sport suffers irreparable damage.

When making 525 HP running 28 degrees timing and a conservative AF, these engines live with few exceptions. If a motor builder ports the heads and changes the cam and the motor starts making more power than the engineering brain trust at GM intended, yes you need better parts. Leave the motors alone and leave it a crate engine class. Preserve the rules and catch cheaters, and more people will join the sport. I think we need to develop a strict inspection policy and have it enforced by someone without a conflict of interest.

We need to reflect back on why the Cx class revived a dying sport just a few years back……It is an affordable engine that allow a guy on a budget to go 100 mph. Deviate from that recipe and the positive results will also decay. If a guy has money and wants to build an engine with more HP, then by all means, step up a class and compete fairly.

And one final thing to consider…..A Canadian series rule change that does not coincide with the UIM rule set prevents those embracing the new rule from competing legally in a world championships event. Anyone wishing to compete in a NON worlds race in the other three participating countries should also consider this.

[Lcuntr]

Cheers burly

[TOP DAWG]

1st - I definitely think these engines need to remain stock, other the an oil pan modification, valve cover mods to change the venting and the oil filler cap that can sometimes get a little hot and changing the ignition system to distributor and MSD6 series ignition.

2nd - Lets not be little girls here and throw out accusations without any evidence. You guys have a chance at every race to protest an engine yet no one has, don't hide behind your keyboard Nancy, if there is a problem put your money where your mouth is and protest. I just finished pulling CX203's engine apart and other then the missing #8 piston, it was bone stock, including 2 broken valve springs ( yellow ones ) and a stock oil pan and oil pump pickup that had to be starving for oil on the Right hand turning PR circuit races. Seems like no one could catch that orange boat even with the stock and tired old engine.

I think this is a great class and yes the engines need to remain a stock Long BLK, I pull the intake off to vent the valley cover, change the valve covers, oil pan and timing covers to maybe gain a bit of reliability, if that makes me a cheater then so be it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Waaaaaaaaaaaa

[Budweiser]

Back at the awards in Whitecourt last fall, a few of us were discussing some of the failed engines in the previous season and we thought it might be worth “exploring” the possibility of allowing some changes to the CX engine that would make them more marine application friendly. Speaking for myself, I felt that a forged piston and hone to proper clearance, head stud and a valve spring upgrade would do the trick. My reasoning was simply reliability and cost of repair in the event that something did go wrong (cooling system problem, bad gas, fuel pump, or regulator failure, timing gremlin) all of which could cause catastrophic failure.

Attached are pictures of failed pistons due to detonation. The one in my hand is what is left of a hypereutectic piston out of an LS3 and the carnage to the block. The other one is forged after market piston that was in a ZZ4, the block and rest of the engine is fine.

I think it needs to be said here, that the goal of everyone involved in the group picked to look into this (of which I was one) was to come up with an option that was cost effective and agreeable to most (not to make more power or give an unfair advantage to any “would be cheaters”). Although I still believe forged pistons and increased clearance would drastically improve the reliability of this engine, I also agree with many of the points that Barry and some of the others brought to our attention and after much consideration, would have to agree with them.

I’m all for teching more thoroughly, if for no other reason, than to dispel the bullshit that we have some rampant problem with cheating. Really Ross, to state that many in the class are outright cheating is, in my opinion, inflammatory and unfounded! You have to cheat to win? I don’t think for a second that Ivan’s new Burly boat is running a cheating motor just because it’s way faster than his old Burly boat. Doesn’t it have something to do with the bottom of the boat and set up that you and a few others spent hours upon hours getting to work so well?

No one would be more pissed off than me to lose to a cheater motor after spending hundreds of hours on spoons, grates, intakes, etc. But, I don’t think its happening and certainly not to the extent you’re talking about.

I, for one, would be willing to forfeit my entire boat if I was caught cheating like that.

A point to note: on a friends boat that blew a few motors last year – MSD says you have to plug in the map sensor, even if you have it turned off, can cause timing gremlins, put one on for him and no more problems yet (not saying its definitive but what can it hurt?). Bobby Clarke came up with that info.

Rick Serhan